How to put a person in a psychiatric hospital who burns toilet paper on a stone in his room at home, throws vegetables out of the window but does not want to go to the ambulance?

How to put a person in a psychiatric hospital who burns toilet paper on a stone in his room at home, throws vegetables out of the window but does not want to go to the ambulance?

Что такое синтол? Синтольные качки мутанты. Перекачанные бодибилдеры, стероидные монстры

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answers (4)

Answer 1
June, 2021

Once I found myself in a situation where everything was + - just as bad. I had to follow, tried to speak, it was still supplemented by hefty doses of alcohol. Throwing away / hiding didn't help. At one of the moments of deterioration and some hallucinations, she called the ambulance, gave the number of the psychiatric hospital. The police only accepted the statement and that was all. Well, what will they do. And in the psychiatric hospital they said, "If he himself agrees, we will. No, we have no right." I said - "Do you understand that a person is threatening himself and others? We will either be crippled the other day or killed." - "Well, they haven't crippled yet. Here's what will happen, call." So no one left anywhere.

Answer 2
June, 2021

I asked this question, and here is my detailed description of the whole situation and what came out of it at the moment. It can be useful for those who are in similar circumstances and do not know what to do.

(I describe the behavior of service employees and all participants as dry as possible, without personal assessments, chronologically. For reasons of reason, I do not give names.)

It all started the day before yesterday.

06/18/2016 A person whose state of mind causes concern began setting fire to scraps of toilet paper on bricks at home. When he tried to convince him to stop this activity and give the brick back, he refused, instead he threw the cabbage head out of his room into the window, with the words "you asked to throw it out, I threw it away." The brick had to be removed, matches and other items were pointless to remove, tk. in his room he has an impenetrable mess up to the ceiling, where there can be any hiding places with anything, plus a person freely walks to the store. I could not call an ambulance, as I was leaving for work at my own peril and risk (I work in a project irregular mode).

The person in question is now about 70 years old. Observed in the PND, was in the hospital 2 years ago (forcibly), and has a huge arsenal of tricks and tricks against doctors, orderlies, so he hides things and does not take medications professionally, it is impossible to force him to do this without using force, which has been proven over 20 years of experience with other people who have also tried. I don’t remember the exact formulation of the diagnosis, I still remember something like “vascular dementia”. He actively and regularly raves, builds houses from rags, wears fancy clothes made of rags, stores garbage in bags in the room, lives on them, periodically places cans / bottles / plastic trays from under products with an undefined liquid that sour and smells, in the season of exacerbations, he can fertilize a pot with a plant in his room or on the balcony with his feces. The fetid smell does not give him discomfort, it can fry rotten meat or fish. A direct relative who is legally obliged to take care of the sick at the place of registration does not live and does not participate in the housing issue or in nursing, besides, he is a disabled person himself, and there is no connection with him at the moment.

19.06 .2016 I call an ambulance, with the approximate meaning of the words "I am afraid to leave the house, there may be a fire in my absence, the person's condition is unstable, throws things out of the window and is dangerous, is observed in the PND and was in the hospital". An ambulance connects with a psychiatric ambulance, which, in turn, with a certain psychiatrist: “Since it’s not rushing now, but only yesterday, then we cannot do anything.” I insist on the danger to myself. The doctor asks to give the patient a tube. I hear the patient's answer: "I do not need help, he needs help." The doctor replies: "Apparently you have a conflict?" I ask again: “I don’t understand the question, he doesn’t want to be treated, but it poses a danger, what are you asking me now?”, The doctor raises his tone more intensively: “I don’t ask, I am stating. You have a conflict.thread to the police ".

With such a doctor's answer, I state that we have a conflict, because the patient throws himself out of the window, burns things at home and does not want to be treated, but I think that it is necessary to treat, and this is our disagreement. I do not argue with anyone, I call the police. The police arrive after the words "presents a danger, the state is not stable, the ambulance told you to call you, but I am afraid for the health and safety of people and property." An outfit arrives, they ask "what did they call?" . Explain. Pass into the room to the patient. Talk. In a conversation with the police, the person does not deny that he threw things, says that he burned to scare off flies, when trying to clarify the motives of the act often strayed from the topic on the topic: "so many flies flew, you saw ? No, did you see I ask you? What else to do if they want to evict me? And a head of cabbage through the window is for the starving. I don’t know which starving people who do not let me sleep at night. "The police are trying to persuade me to go to the police station. The patient changes the subject, dodges, asks unexpected provocative questions to everyone around him, denies the need to go somewhere. Conviction lasts about 20 minutes, unsuccessfully. The police are asking me to go down to the car with them. They say that let the district policeman sort it out. The man is clearly not himself. A district policeman was just passing by with a detour, and the policeman noticed him and asked to come. The district police officer came up. They talk. I am writing a statement to of the person where I describe the situation. Employees in conversation with each other make it clear that there is no point in writing something special, it is not their business. They did not call an ambulance, they say, they do not threaten anyone, the situation looks calm here. according to the law, the care of the patient should be that as long as the patient does not rush at people, it is not the police's business. He offered to record his behavior on video, said that if the neighbors call the police, it will be another matter. I took the business card and went our separate ways.

06/20/2016 In the morning, the patient's behavior is suspicious. I turn on the camera on my phone on the advice of the district police officer, just to record how the patient with the kitchen knife in his hands leaves the apartment, slamming the door and not closing it. When asked "why do you need a knife in your hand?" replies "I had cheese poisoning in the store last time, yeah. Close the door behind me" and slams the door. I called the district police officer and asked what to do with the video recording of such content. He replies, "Well, many people walk the streets with knives, this is not a sufficient reason for detention. As for the patient's condition, the doctors are interested in it." Calling an ambulance. Please connect to the psychiatric ambulance. I say that I am afraid for the patient's condition, that I called yesterday, that there was the police, that the man left the house with a knife in his hands and could not explain why he was, that he filmed it on the advice of the district police officer.

This time, the psychiatrist does not ask for a phone call to the patient, now I speak only with the operator. I hear the answer: "He is not at home now, do I understand you correctly? Well, where are we going, it's the police. Well, or call us when he comes back."

in two hours. I'm filming. Drops things, kicks them down the hallway. I stop recording and go to call the ambulance again. They connect with whom they need (again I repeat the information at the address of the patient's name and PND, again I tell the story), I say: come! They answer that if a person returned and did not kill anyone, does not threaten to do anything, then he does not need an ambulance. I answer that I have heard this story ten times already, they have already sent me to the police, the police came and the police say this is not their area of ​​responsibility, half of Moscow with knives, they say, is walking down the street. The ambulance replies to me: "Stop your monologue and listen! The person poses a threat, he is socially dangerous, it is their responsibility! Who did you communicate with, the district police officer? Call the police directly, they must respond! Now, if your person was registered ... ". I interrupt: "This is how it is!" Then he asks me for details of where he is registered, where the patient lay (again). The ambulance answers: wait for the ambulance squad. If he tries to exit, stop. If you are afraid, do not interfere, but in this case, if you leave the apartment, be sure to let us know. "

An ambulance arrives. They pass to the patient (nothing had to be explained again). They talk to him. One doctor stays with the patient, the second offers to go into another room, asks what I wanted to show. I show the video. The doctor begins to fill out the papers, and then we have a conversation, during which they explain the situation to me from all sides. To begin with:

1) They will not take the patient away, since there is a directive according to which all patients, if it is possible to leave at home, must be left, otherwise the doctors have consequences “from above.” And at this particular second (despite the video), the patient does not pose a threat to anyone.

2) All they can do is give a person a medicine.

They asked for a glass of water. They added medicine for symptoms and also Corvalol to fight off the smell of the first medicine. I was instructed to give this to the patient. I said, that to make him drink something is unrealistic. Azali try. In the end, the doctor helped me, he convinced me in the form of an ultimatum: either you drink or you are going with us now. The patient drank from a teaspoon from a glass, and again began to evade the conversation. After ten minutes of pressure from both sides, I drank the medicine in two passes. I returned to the doctor in another room, he continued to tell how things stand with this issue in perspective:

• Responsibility for the care is assigned to the relatives, ie. from the letter of the law, the relatives are guilty of not being forced to take medicine and not preventing an exacerbation. If they cannot force him to take medications (the patient does not agree), then they have no right to use force against him or to forcibly hospitalize him, but they still bear responsibility for this (!), Paradoxically.

the patient, taking into account his specific diagnosis, will only get worse over time.

• There are two ways: either to take the initiative, since the law cannot help anything else here, or to wait until all is wellf a person will injure someone and then they will take him away for six months by a court decision, and the whole story will repeat itself again from the beginning.

After the conversation, the ambulance doctors invited the doctor from the dispensary by phone (leaving information about this to the PND registry verbally, from my phone number). The patient was asked to find a passport to clarify the year of birth. The patient gave a passport and said: "What, take me away, right?" The doctors did not take the patient anywhere. Then they left, and when the door closed, he shouted unexpectedly through tears: "Then I will hang myself right here, my death will be on your conscience!" The doctors had already left the apartment at that time. He began to monitor the patient.

30 minutes after the doctors left, the patient began to behave agitated, then wander around the apartment and incoherently blame someone for violence against himself and "sabotage", which, according to him, continued for years, using swearing and words such as "fascism", etc. At the moment, an hour and a half after taking the medicine (which at first seemed to work, and then the effect disappeared) still walks around the apartment and noisily rearranges things in his room. I make sure that I do not hang myself, I keep the door to the room open, if I hear what is closing, I come and open, explaining my actions with the request of the doctor.

The bottom line:

We have legal hole regarding caring for a sick person who does not want to take medicine. You have no right to force-feed this person with drugs, and given that he does not want to be treated voluntarily, and it is impossible to force him by cunning, it remains to wait until the patient burns down the apartment. And according to the law, the culprit will be a disabled relative who does not live in the apartment, although he is registered. To declare him on the wanted list so that he returns with his (infectious) diagnosis, according to which he became disabled, I see no reason for myself.

An acquaintance from the healthcare system advised to “be friends” with the doctor from the PND, to give sweets / cognacs so that he would come and give a prolonged injection (apparently, forcibly, because the patient will never give consent). I fundamentally dislike a corrupt solution to the issue.

Answer 3
June, 2021

Write a statement to the district as well as the district psychiatrist (or in the district MHP) and describe the behavior in detail without evaluations (bad / good, adequate / abnormal, etc.). If there are grounds, there will be an effect.

Answer 4
June, 2021

Unfortunately, from the data you described there are no direct indications for involuntary hospitalization, no signs of acute mental illness. What you are describing refers to public disorder. You need to contact a local police officer, write a collective statement to the police, and get an administrative / criminal case initiated. Then, if necessary, he will undergo a psychiatric examination and be declared insane - only in this case he can be admitted to the hospital without his consent.

You may not have described enough data. Take a closer look, maybe this person expresses delusional ideas, threatens to burn down the apartment and all the neighbors, expresses suicidal thoughts. This will already be a sign of an acute mental disorder. In this case, the ambulance cannot refuse.

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